It depends. I mean DC would win in a fight of superheroes, because Justice League are way more super than the Avengers and X-men put together.
But, Marvel sells more books every month.
I grew up reading Marvel, got turned on to DC in school, and now, the books are too much money, so I just follow some of them using wikipedia and newsarama.
Ivan, you’re right about One More Day. But what about Planet Hulk, World War Hulk, Astonishing X-Men, Ultimate Spider-Man, Secret Invasion…. good times.
D.C. has had some interesting things with the Green Lantern Corps. But their best book is All-Star Superman.
If we look historically, over the entire body of what’s been done, I say D.C. Comics. But if we’re talking current state of affairs — Marvel.
Marvel’s universe is much more compelling because it takes place in real cities with real names, not fictional cities. Not only are the settings more realistic, but so are the characters.
Marvel has been way ahead of the curve as far as presenting ethnically diverse superheroes, and dealing with social issues either directly, or allegorically.
And Marvel introduced the first anti-hero superheroes, characters that struggled to overcome darker motivations such as greed, revenge, power, and control.
If Marvel is so great, then why are their superheroes for the most past ignored by mainstream society? What Marvel hero besides Spider-Man has anything close to the cultural cachet of Batman or Superman?
Hmm. Both to me are, as a whole, pretty silly. With Marvel too many mutants with DC too many aliens. Plus there are just way, way, way too many characters. But I love Batman and Superman - even if some implementations are bad. Ditto with Green Lantern and Green Arrow. On the other hand I only read Marvel in my youth during what to me was it’s golden age of the late 70s. (Although I loved the Kirby/Lee stuff from the 60’s as well)
Matt, true enough, but in terms of being part of the American zeitgeist I just don’t see Marvel making the same impact. Superficially perhaps, but not like Batman and Superman.
Batman and Superman are the most popular comic book heros ever. After that, though, DC has no edge on Marvel.
For the record, after having given it some thought, Superman might be my least favorite comic superhero. He’s a pretty boring guy. Too one-dimensional.
“Most part ignored by mainstream society” Whah? Hunh?
You’re crazy. The Hulk is huge. Had his own TV series for years. Even Dr. Strange had a TV series. The Fantastic Four have had two movies. Hulk has had two. X-men, three. Daredevil, one. Elektra, one. Iron Man was a huge hit. Wolverine is in the works. Nick Fury, Agent of Shield, too.
The real question is beyond Superman and Batman, what D.C. characters have real cachet? The Wonder Twins with their monkey Gleek? Aquaman? I don’t think the Teen Titans have even got a movie in the works, or even the Justice League.
Brian, you’re right re: number of popular characters (though I think you’re forgetting Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and the Flash), but in terms of permeation nobody tops Batman and Superman. That’s all I’m saying, and I don’t think it’s a very controversial point.
There was a Justice League movie in the works for a while, but I haven’t heard anything about it lately. Alas, the Joss Whedon Wonder Woman looks like it’s never going to happen.
I don’t equate permeation with cultural cachet, and I don’t concede the point. Marvel characters are everywhere.
Also, keep in mind that today’s Batman, is a far cry from the Batman of yesteryear. Think Adam West. The Dark Knight we love today is a reaction to darker Marvel characters that are anti-social vigilantes, such as the Punisher, Daredevil, and Wolverine.
Brian, if you want to pick a fight, go ahead. I didn’t know we were debating, and I have no interest in doing so. But your revisionist history of Batman is completely wrong and shows a general lack of knowledge regarding comic books.
Also, keep in mind that today’s Batman, is a far cry from the Batman of yesteryear. Think Adam West. The Dark Knight we love today is a reaction to darker Marvel characters that are anti-social vigilantes, such as the Punisher, Daredevil, and Wolverine.
The Batman comics have always been darker than the Adam West series. He was dark long before Wolverine was around.
Unfortunately the Justice League movie is going through with the director of Mad Max being the director. They are using different actors for Superman and Batman.
For the record (and take this with some salt), IMDb lists the following future releases from DC:
Justice League: Mortal (2011)
The Flash (2010)
Jonah Hex (2010)
Metal Men (2010)
Green Lantern (2010)
Superman: Man of Steel (2009)
Watchmen (2009)
Billy Batson and the Legend of Shazam (2009)
Wonder Woman (2009)
Teen Titans (2009)
And Marvel has these:
The Avengers (2011)
The First Avenger: Captain America (2011)
Ant-Man (2010)
Nick Fury (2010)
Thor (2010)
Doctor Strange (2010)
Luke Cage (2009)
X-Men Origins: Magneto (2009)
X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009)
Punisher: War Zone (2008)
Many of these are listed as “pre-production” and it’s unlikely that all will be completed.
Hollywood is going crazy for superhero comics right now, but a few big-budget stinkers and the studios’ enthusiasm will sink fast, most likely taking some of these movies with it.
I’m actually excited for the new Superman. I think Singer should learn from what failed in that one. There were still a ton of elements in the movie I liked. My main complaint was going back to the Gene Hackman version of the villain and then the whole “does he have a kid” thing.
Contra others I think there’s a ton you can do with Superman. It’s just that people don’t do it.
I agree with SG. Batman, Superman, and Spiderman are the A-listers, Marvel has a lock on the B-listers, and DC else are C-listers on down.
Please to be remembering that Supes and the Bat were around for roughly 25-30 years prior to the arrival of Marvel’s best. So it really is no wonder that they have more cultural cachet.
I believe the dark turn in Bats roughly coincided with the arrival of darker themes in Marvel. I think it was more of a comic-book zeitgeist thing, fueled by Frank Miller and Alan Moore.
Well now that Richard Pryor is gone perhaps they could get Dave Chappelle to go up against Supes…
Comment by a random John — July 22, 2008 @ 10:30 am
I agree with you for the most part, John C. My reasoning was based on the fact that the Marvel influence on Batman can be traced through Miller’s work. He reinvented Daredevil first, worked on an influential Wolverine limited series, and then did The Dark Knight Returns. Miller’s Daredevil and Wolverine can be considered prototypical to his Batman, which in turn inspired both Burton and Nolan’s Batman, and supplanted the Adam West Batman familiar to mainstream audiences.
The problem with Superman is not the villain he’s up against, it’s that he’s too powerful. How can you root for a guy that such overwhelming advantages and only one weakness? He’s so powerful, he’s boring.
Comment by a random John — July 22, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
In any case, it all really started when Speedy did heroin and Green Arrow had to deal with that, while on the flip side Spiderman came to realize Harry Osborn was also on drugs. Those events were the first to push the envelope of the comics code authority, and that was back in the late 60s. neither involved batman, who for many years was trapped in “Adam West” syndrome.
This can only be said by someone wholly unaware of the entire history of the Batman. Batman was a dark hero since day one. He killed, maimed, and tortured. Adam West was an aberration, not the standard.
I don’t think anyone’s ever said that Batman wasn’t dark from the beginning, but between the camp of the TV show, and the comics code authority, the superfriends, etc. a re-darkening was necessary, a restoration, if you will. And although I give credit to Miller for finishing the job, I think it was the work of a lot of men, no question.
Ivan,
I apologize. I meant the current dark turn (which, for some reason, I am associating with Denny O’Neill, not Frank Miller). As has been noted, Bats has not been consistently dark. Proof: Bat-mite.
Matt, true enough, but in terms of being part of the American zeitgeist I just don’t see Marvel making the same impact. Superficially perhaps, but not like Batman and Superman.
Batman and Superman pass the Mom Test: my 75-year-old mother knows who they are. She wouldn’t recognize any other superheroes except possibly Spider-man and Wonder Woman.
One of the last times I saw Bat-Mite, he was part of a drug addicted criminal’s bizarre confession given to Batman under what would definitely be considered torture. Batman decided that the story indicated the criminal was too far gone to have an reliable info, but Batman had to break a few fingers (or the like) to get to that point.
Ivan,
I really don’t get what you are going on about. Bat-mite was meant to be bizarre comic relief, not dark gritty action. An awful lot of late fifties/early sixties Batman stories were much more Adam West than Dark Knight. Because of the television series, Bats was perceived as having a lighter tone. For better or for worse, the return of the dark knight is more associated with Frank Miller than 70’s Batman. That was my point.
Seriously, Bat-mite as indicative of a dark Dark Knight? Really?
I honestly couldn’t tell you which superhero belonged to which label. For those of us who don’t follow these things closely, can someone provide a list of the top 10 or 20 comic books from each?
Comment by Matt Thurston — July 23, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
You can’t be serious. I think that both George Clooney and the 70’s Superfriends Batman are far, far worse than Adam West. Come to think of it, I don’t think Val Kilmer was nearly the Batman/Bruce Wayne that Adam West was either.
Comment by a random John — July 23, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
Kilmer as Batman was actually not bad although the movie sucked. But yeah, as bad and horrific as Schumacher gay-fetish inspired Batman was the Adam West series (which obviously inspired Schumacher) was worse.
I am a huge Superman and Batman fan. Those who assert that the Marvel guys are more complex just don’t get the pressures and issues that confront a demi-god. The issues that confront Superman are for me much more philosophically complex, deeper and more thought provoking.
Batman is always my favorite anti-hero. I really like the Superman-Batman comics and the old World’s Greatest comics — tho the Legion of Superheroes was always my favorite.
Of the Marvel comics my favorite was always Thor — for the same reasons. Godlike dilemmas for a hero way to aloof to really get it. However, Marvel has long had a lock on the superior comic book artists and the dialog is often superior to what I find in DC. However, DC’s use of Alex Ross is just genius. The death of Superman and the Kingdom Come series are the best ever published in comics in my opinion.
Loading …
Marvel. Probably because I was such a huge Spider-Man fan as a child. And when it comes to movies, I think Marvel has a better track record.
Comment by jjohnsen — July 21, 2008 @ 11:07 am
After “One More Day” with Spider-Man, I was about to vote DC -
but then I remembered that “52″ and “Countdown to Final Crisis” were just plain awful, so I went with Marvel.
Comment by Ivan Wolfe — July 21, 2008 @ 11:23 am
I hate you Rusty.
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 11:36 am
It depends. I mean DC would win in a fight of superheroes, because Justice League are way more super than the Avengers and X-men put together.
But, Marvel sells more books every month.
I grew up reading Marvel, got turned on to DC in school, and now, the books are too much money, so I just follow some of them using wikipedia and newsarama.
Basically, they cost too much. So I vote neither.
Comment by Matt W. — July 21, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Ivan, you’re right about One More Day. But what about Planet Hulk, World War Hulk, Astonishing X-Men, Ultimate Spider-Man, Secret Invasion…. good times.
D.C. has had some interesting things with the Green Lantern Corps. But their best book is All-Star Superman.
If we look historically, over the entire body of what’s been done, I say D.C. Comics. But if we’re talking current state of affairs — Marvel.
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 11:44 am
my vote for Marvel was for the past. I rarely buy comics anymore, and when I do it’s in trade paperback form. No more expensive issues for me.
Comment by jjohnsen — July 21, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Marvel’s characters are generally more interesting/complex.
Comment by BTD Greg — July 21, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
This is no contest. Marvel.
Marvel’s universe is much more compelling because it takes place in real cities with real names, not fictional cities. Not only are the settings more realistic, but so are the characters.
Marvel has been way ahead of the curve as far as presenting ethnically diverse superheroes, and dealing with social issues either directly, or allegorically.
And Marvel introduced the first anti-hero superheroes, characters that struggled to overcome darker motivations such as greed, revenge, power, and control.
Comment by Brian G — July 21, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Marvel is better. It really isn’t even a contest.
But like others in this thread, I haven’t purchased a comic in ages.
Comment by danithew — July 21, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
If Marvel is so great, then why are their superheroes for the most past ignored by mainstream society? What Marvel hero besides Spider-Man has anything close to the cultural cachet of Batman or Superman?
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
Hmm. Both to me are, as a whole, pretty silly. With Marvel too many mutants with DC too many aliens. Plus there are just way, way, way too many characters. But I love Batman and Superman - even if some implementations are bad. Ditto with Green Lantern and Green Arrow. On the other hand I only read Marvel in my youth during what to me was it’s golden age of the late 70s. (Although I loved the Kirby/Lee stuff from the 60’s as well)
Today though? Hmm. It’d have to be DC.
Comment by Clark — July 21, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
SG, um, Captain America’s death made headlines last year…
Wolverine tattoos are everywhere.
And don’t get me started on the inane poplarity of the punshers’ symbol.
Don’t get me wrong, I know the Flash is the greatest Superhero ever, and could easily kill the rest (even superman)
Comment by Matt W. — July 21, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
Matt, true enough, but in terms of being part of the American zeitgeist I just don’t see Marvel making the same impact. Superficially perhaps, but not like Batman and Superman.
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
Batman and Superman are the most popular comic book heros ever. After that, though, DC has no edge on Marvel.
For the record, after having given it some thought, Superman might be my least favorite comic superhero. He’s a pretty boring guy. Too one-dimensional.
Comment by BTD Greg — July 21, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
“Most part ignored by mainstream society” Whah? Hunh?
You’re crazy. The Hulk is huge. Had his own TV series for years. Even Dr. Strange had a TV series. The Fantastic Four have had two movies. Hulk has had two. X-men, three. Daredevil, one. Elektra, one. Iron Man was a huge hit. Wolverine is in the works. Nick Fury, Agent of Shield, too.
The real question is beyond Superman and Batman, what D.C. characters have real cachet? The Wonder Twins with their monkey Gleek? Aquaman? I don’t think the Teen Titans have even got a movie in the works, or even the Justice League.
Comment by Brian G — July 21, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
Brian, you’re right re: number of popular characters (though I think you’re forgetting Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and the Flash), but in terms of permeation nobody tops Batman and Superman. That’s all I’m saying, and I don’t think it’s a very controversial point.
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
There was a Justice League movie in the works for a while, but I haven’t heard anything about it lately. Alas, the Joss Whedon Wonder Woman looks like it’s never going to happen.
Comment by BTD Greg — July 21, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
I don’t equate permeation with cultural cachet, and I don’t concede the point. Marvel characters are everywhere.
Also, keep in mind that today’s Batman, is a far cry from the Batman of yesteryear. Think Adam West. The Dark Knight we love today is a reaction to darker Marvel characters that are anti-social vigilantes, such as the Punisher, Daredevil, and Wolverine.
Comment by Brian G — July 21, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
Brian, if you want to pick a fight, go ahead. I didn’t know we were debating, and I have no interest in doing so. But your revisionist history of Batman is completely wrong and shows a general lack of knowledge regarding comic books.
Comment by Supergenius — July 21, 2008 @ 2:14 pm
The Batman comics have always been darker than the Adam West series. He was dark long before Wolverine was around.
Comment by jjohnsen — July 21, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Sheesh. Was it what I said about Gleek?
Comment by Brian G — July 21, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
Unfortunately the Justice League movie is going through with the director of Mad Max being the director. They are using different actors for Superman and Batman.
Comment by Clark — July 21, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
For the record (and take this with some salt), IMDb lists the following future releases from DC:
Justice League: Mortal (2011)
The Flash (2010)
Jonah Hex (2010)
Metal Men (2010)
Green Lantern (2010)
Superman: Man of Steel (2009)
Watchmen (2009)
Billy Batson and the Legend of Shazam (2009)
Wonder Woman (2009)
Teen Titans (2009)
And Marvel has these:
The Avengers (2011)
The First Avenger: Captain America (2011)
Ant-Man (2010)
Nick Fury (2010)
Thor (2010)
Doctor Strange (2010)
Luke Cage (2009)
X-Men Origins: Magneto (2009)
X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009)
Punisher: War Zone (2008)
Many of these are listed as “pre-production” and it’s unlikely that all will be completed.
Hollywood is going crazy for superhero comics right now, but a few big-budget stinkers and the studios’ enthusiasm will sink fast, most likely taking some of these movies with it.
Comment by BTD Greg — July 21, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
Which one has Princess Bedhead?
Comment by Susan M — July 21, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
I’m actually excited for the new Superman. I think Singer should learn from what failed in that one. There were still a ton of elements in the movie I liked. My main complaint was going back to the Gene Hackman version of the villain and then the whole “does he have a kid” thing.
Contra others I think there’s a ton you can do with Superman. It’s just that people don’t do it.
Comment by Clark — July 21, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
Image!
Comment by Eric Russell — July 21, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
My main complaint was I don’t think Jesus looks good in blue.
Comment by jjohnsen — July 21, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
The world does not need another Superman movie …
Comment by danithew — July 21, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
Oh, but it does… It needs Superman very much. Just a Superman done well.
Comment by Clark — July 22, 2008 @ 12:07 am
Clark, I think the trick to doing Superman well might be to find the right Lex Luthor.
I think the tv adaptations of Superman have been pretty decent …
Comment by danithew — July 22, 2008 @ 5:52 am
I think it’s time to move on to another Superman villian.
Comment by jjohnsen — July 22, 2008 @ 8:59 am
How about Mister Mxyzptlk? That would kill the franchise for sure.
Comment by BTD Greg — July 22, 2008 @ 9:32 am
I agree with SG. Batman, Superman, and Spiderman are the A-listers, Marvel has a lock on the B-listers, and DC else are C-listers on down.
Please to be remembering that Supes and the Bat were around for roughly 25-30 years prior to the arrival of Marvel’s best. So it really is no wonder that they have more cultural cachet.
I believe the dark turn in Bats roughly coincided with the arrival of darker themes in Marvel. I think it was more of a comic-book zeitgeist thing, fueled by Frank Miller and Alan Moore.
Comment by John C. — July 22, 2008 @ 9:53 am
Well now that Richard Pryor is gone perhaps they could get Dave Chappelle to go up against Supes…
Comment by a random John — July 22, 2008 @ 10:30 am
I agree with you for the most part, John C. My reasoning was based on the fact that the Marvel influence on Batman can be traced through Miller’s work. He reinvented Daredevil first, worked on an influential Wolverine limited series, and then did The Dark Knight Returns. Miller’s Daredevil and Wolverine can be considered prototypical to his Batman, which in turn inspired both Burton and Nolan’s Batman, and supplanted the Adam West Batman familiar to mainstream audiences.
Comment by Brian G — July 22, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
The problem with Superman is not the villain he’s up against, it’s that he’s too powerful. How can you root for a guy that such overwhelming advantages and only one weakness? He’s so powerful, he’s boring.
Comment by MCQ — July 22, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
Maybe I spoke to soon. Looks like they’ve got someone else in mind for the next Superman movie…
Comment by a random John — July 22, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
In any case, it all really started when Speedy did heroin and Green Arrow had to deal with that, while on the flip side Spiderman came to realize Harry Osborn was also on drugs. Those events were the first to push the envelope of the comics code authority, and that was back in the late 60s. neither involved batman, who for many years was trapped in “Adam West” syndrome.
Comment by Matt W. — July 22, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
What the world needs is another Spawn movie.
Comment by Eric Russell — July 22, 2008 @ 2:53 pm
the dark turn in Bats
This can only be said by someone wholly unaware of the entire history of the Batman. Batman was a dark hero since day one. He killed, maimed, and tortured. Adam West was an aberration, not the standard.
Comment by Ivan Wolfe — July 22, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
I don’t think anyone’s ever said that Batman wasn’t dark from the beginning, but between the camp of the TV show, and the comics code authority, the superfriends, etc. a re-darkening was necessary, a restoration, if you will. And although I give credit to Miller for finishing the job, I think it was the work of a lot of men, no question.
Comment by Brian G — July 22, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
Ivan,
I apologize. I meant the current dark turn (which, for some reason, I am associating with Denny O’Neill, not Frank Miller). As has been noted, Bats has not been consistently dark. Proof: Bat-mite.
Comment by John C. — July 22, 2008 @ 6:10 pm
He also originally carried a gun, if I recall correctly.
Comment by John C. — July 22, 2008 @ 6:10 pm
Matt, true enough, but in terms of being part of the American zeitgeist I just don’t see Marvel making the same impact. Superficially perhaps, but not like Batman and Superman.
Batman and Superman pass the Mom Test: my 75-year-old mother knows who they are. She wouldn’t recognize any other superheroes except possibly Spider-man and Wonder Woman.
Comment by kuri — July 22, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
Proof: Bat-mite
Really?
One of the last times I saw Bat-Mite, he was part of a drug addicted criminal’s bizarre confession given to Batman under what would definitely be considered torture. Batman decided that the story indicated the criminal was too far gone to have an reliable info, but Batman had to break a few fingers (or the like) to get to that point.
Comment by Ivan Wolfe — July 22, 2008 @ 7:50 pm
Adam West was an aberration, not the standard.
Whatever.
For me Adam West will always be the standard by which all other Batmen are judged.
Comment by a random John — July 22, 2008 @ 10:08 pm
And they’ll all be judged better… (grin)
Comment by Clark — July 23, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
Ivan,
I really don’t get what you are going on about. Bat-mite was meant to be bizarre comic relief, not dark gritty action. An awful lot of late fifties/early sixties Batman stories were much more Adam West than Dark Knight. Because of the television series, Bats was perceived as having a lighter tone. For better or for worse, the return of the dark knight is more associated with Frank Miller than 70’s Batman. That was my point.
Seriously, Bat-mite as indicative of a dark Dark Knight? Really?
Comment by John C. — July 23, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
I honestly couldn’t tell you which superhero belonged to which label. For those of us who don’t follow these things closely, can someone provide a list of the top 10 or 20 comic books from each?
Comment by Matt Thurston — July 23, 2008 @ 12:40 pm
For Marvel, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marvel_Comics_characters
For DC, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DC_Comics_characters
Comment by MCQ — July 23, 2008 @ 1:05 pm
Clark,
You can’t be serious. I think that both George Clooney and the 70’s Superfriends Batman are far, far worse than Adam West. Come to think of it, I don’t think Val Kilmer was nearly the Batman/Bruce Wayne that Adam West was either.
Comment by a random John — July 23, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
Kilmer as Batman was actually not bad although the movie sucked. But yeah, as bad and horrific as Schumacher gay-fetish inspired Batman was the Adam West series (which obviously inspired Schumacher) was worse.
Comment by Clark — July 23, 2008 @ 4:43 pm
I am a huge Superman and Batman fan. Those who assert that the Marvel guys are more complex just don’t get the pressures and issues that confront a demi-god. The issues that confront Superman are for me much more philosophically complex, deeper and more thought provoking.
Batman is always my favorite anti-hero. I really like the Superman-Batman comics and the old World’s Greatest comics — tho the Legion of Superheroes was always my favorite.
Of the Marvel comics my favorite was always Thor — for the same reasons. Godlike dilemmas for a hero way to aloof to really get it. However, Marvel has long had a lock on the superior comic book artists and the dialog is often superior to what I find in DC. However, DC’s use of Alex Ross is just genius. The death of Superman and the Kingdom Come series are the best ever published in comics in my opinion.
Comment by Blake — July 24, 2008 @ 1:10 am