LOST puts on the waterskis and leather jacket
Instant reaction: the finale of Season 2 not only failed to live up to the hype, it gave viewers a reason to get off of the bandwagon.
Spoilers after the jump, so don’t read until you’ve watched (or save yourself 90 minutes and just read).
I imagine that my reaction not unexpected by the show’s producers. Despite the overwhelming popularity of LOST, the show faces a problem: overall viewership is dropping, since it’s very difficult to jump into the show midstream. At this point, there’s enough backstory and mythology that new viewers will have a very difficult time getting enough grounding without watching the entire series from the beginning. When the show was only season old, this wasn’t a problem — in fact, it was a selling point for the DVD set. However, going forward, this will become increasingly difficult to get new viewers to do.
The solution? Reinvent the show every season. The brilliance of the season one finale was that for weeks, we the viewers had been wondering along with Locke and Boone what exactly was in that hatch. And then in the finale, we were given a promise that if we came back for season two, we’d find out. And boy, did we.
This time around, what were we waiting for? What happens with Michael and Walt? We found out, or at least we think we did. What happens if the button isn’t pushed? We found out. Who’s the father of Sun’s child? Too far in the future to care. Will Claire and Charlie get back together? Yawn. Who are the Others? We still don’t know. What was the testing done on Walt? No clue. What is Libby’s backstory? She’s gone, I don’t really care that much anymore. There are many, many other unanswered questions, most of which haven’t been addressed recently, most of which aren’t terribly compelling, and for none of which we were given any kind of sign that we’d see an answer soon.
The questions that we might actually care about are completely ignored. Are Eko, Locke, and Desmond really dead? Charlie seems remarkably unconcerned about their fate.
In the meantime, we were introduced to a whole new raft of questions and concerns. What was that four-toed foot all about? Who is Penelope Widmore, and what does she know about the island? These figure to be central concerns of next season. But I don’t really care about them. Sure, they might become compelling stories like the other stories told so far on LOST, but I have no particular reason to lie awake nights thinking about them over the summer. I simply don’t know enough. It’s perfect for new viewers who start watching next season — they’ll know just as much as we veteran LOST watchers when the fun starts again.
I have my doubts as to whether this kind of reinvention is sustainable over the long term. The producers want us to believe that the island is the main character. Unfortunately, it’s too often upstaged by its human inhabitants. We care what happens to them too much.
The X-Files, for all of its flaws in its later seasons, could tell compelling stories in a single, stand-alone episode that the occasional viewer could appreciate. 24 promises that you only have to remember what happens over the course of a single season. Law and Order — sure, the characters have personal lives, but they matter precious little to most episodes. LOST is trying to figure out how to draw more viewers into its world, but in doing so runs a grave risk of destroying what makes it so compelling.
Yeah, this is pretty rambling and disjointed. Kind of like the finale.
Bryce I is just like Locke—he lost his faith and he is wrong.
Hundreds of thousands of people will buy Season two on DVD. Tens of millions will watch next season…and Bryce will probably be one of them.
Comment by Brian G — May 24, 2006 @ 10:33 pm
Is your title a reference to “jumping the shark”?
Comment by D. Fletcher — May 24, 2006 @ 10:33 pm
Brian G.,
I absolutely agree. DVD sales is actually what makes 24 profitable if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure season 2 will be a big seller. I’m also sure Lost is probably one of the most DVR’ed programs (competing with Idol) and is also downloaded on their website, so I’m not sure the decreased ratings are not so worrisome.
Besides all of that, it was a pretty impressive finale.
Comment by Tim J. — May 24, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
Wow, that’s a pretty harsh reaction Bryce. I thought the season finale was quite good. I don’t think the show has come anywhere near jumping the shark yet.
Comment by Allison — May 24, 2006 @ 11:00 pm
Oops, that was me.
Comment by BTD Greg — May 24, 2006 @ 11:00 pm
I didn’t say it has jumped yet, but it’s getting ready to.
The central problem for LOST is how to grow its audience in the face of increased competition. I don’t see it happening without a lot of changes in what makes the show great. If the producers are content with pleasing their current audience, that’s great, but I don’t see it happening that way.
Comment by Bryce I — May 24, 2006 @ 11:07 pm
I don’t really get what you’re saying. How do you think Lost is going to jump? What does this have to do with going after new viewers?
Comment by BTD Greg — May 24, 2006 @ 11:13 pm
It doesn’t necessarily need to grow its audience to succeed. I haven’t seen any real stats that show me it is diminishing past the rate that ALL network TV is diminishing. Plus, LOST is on the absolute forefront of being distributed via alternative methods (far beyond any other TV shows). DVDs, downloads to phones and computers, etc.
Plus, your post’s critiques, that it reinvents itself each season and that it answers many questions while posing new ones, are actual strengths in my opinion. I believe a lot of compelling new questions were posed to lead into next season.
The one flaw that has harmed the show is that viewers lose interest after two or three new eps. followed by reruns, but the producers and networks are addressing that next season.
Comment by Brian G — May 24, 2006 @ 11:14 pm
I still have ten minutes to go — but I can already say with some certainty that Bryce is wrong.
Comment by Supergenius — May 24, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
OK, just finished it. Bryce is a nice guy. A nice, WRONG guy who smokes bad ganja.
Comment by Supergenius — May 24, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
OK folks, give me ONE reason why I should be excited for the season premiere next season. Right now I have NONE. Sure, I’ll still watch, but we’re back to square one on this show for me.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 5:04 am
Brian G –
The problem isn’t that the finale answered many old questions and raised many new ones — I agree that this is a strength of the show. The miscalculation, in my estimation, is that none of the new questions raised are connected to existing storylines. The mystery of the hatch carried viewers from season one to season two. Having watched the last half of season one, I couldn’t not watch the season two premiere.
Sure, the foot and the Widmore cold-weather monitoring station are intriguing, but I’m not invested in finding out what they are all about at all at this point.
My wife is seriously considering watching American Idol next season, just to see why it’s so popular. We even flipped over a few times during LOST, even though we’ve never watched it before, to see Taylor Hicks win (I’m praying that Kristen doesn’t get hooked on the show — The brief glimpses we had of Prince and the finalists singing “I’m Having the Time of My Life” sent serious shudders down my spine).
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 5:15 am
Bryce,
I think your bitterness is valid for the last ten minutes, which were a tad weak. Charlie and Claire? Yuck. Polar station and Penny? The foot? Intriguing, but they also came out of nowhere so they lacked the drama of the hatch/boat scenes of last year which had been building for weeks. Charlie not caring about Ecko/Locke/Desmond? Weird. Plus, nothing about the Others to get our juices going for next year. Yes, it fell flat. But…
…I still liked it (I thought Desmond kicked arse) and I’ll be back next year for sure.
Comment by Ronan — May 25, 2006 @ 6:06 am
I thought it was great. There are plenty of reasons I’ll be watching next season. Fake Henry Gale is creepily compelling. Jack/Kate/Sawyer being captured is going to be a lot of fun. I want to find out what happened to Locke and Eko. Sayid has a rescue mission that was made for him. I want Desmond’s story.
There aren’t very many TV shows I can sit through for half an hour, but at the end of this two hour episode, I told Greg I’d happily sit through another hour if I could. (He agreed, and we speculated about why anyone would watch American Idol when they could be watching Lost.) I’ve thought for a while that it’s the best show on TV, and the finale clinched it for me.
Comment by Allison — May 25, 2006 @ 6:32 am
Bryce, we were doing the back-and-forth between American Idol and Lost as well (mostly staying on Lost, but catching the Taylor’s win as well). Actually I was happy to see Prince show up … but I missed the number you are talking about, which sounds awful.
There is one main reason I can think of to want to watch Lost again. Four of the main characters are now with the Others … which means that unless these four characters drop off the face of the earth, we are finally going to learn more about the Others, how they live, what they think/believe, etc.
By the way, is it entirely clear that Ecko and Locke are dead? Was there a bigger explosion when the key was turned? I’m not entirely sure what exactly happened there.
Comment by danithew — May 25, 2006 @ 6:50 am
I liked it, but it did piss me off in a few ways. First of all was the incredibly frequent commercial breaks. I’m often reminded while watching Lost that it’s all about ad revenues, but dang. Seems like they stretched a 90 min. episode to fill two hours.
Second, the writers cheated. Last week they made us believe that we had all the info about Michael’s deal with the Others. They made their demands, he made his, the deal was struck. No mention of leading them to the seculded area away from the camp was made. Apologists may come up with an excuse as to why that’s not bad storytelling, but I’m not hearing it.
Third, why has everyone become stupid over the past two weeks? Both Jack and Sawyer ceding authority to Michael was uncharacteristic and stupid. Can Eko really be so dumb as to blow up dynamite in an enclosed space while standing ten yards away? And worst of all, Sayid comes up with the boat plan, Jack and party leave, then the dumbass scrambles to rustle up someone who knows how to sail.
But despite all that, it was intriguing and fun. I like the introduction of the statue and the Penny intrigue. I’m excited that we have protagonists among the Others so we can find out more about them. And I’m anxious to know how Locke and Eko made out. Although I will say, if either or both of them is dead, that would be a big loss to the show.
By the way, I remembered last night that there are alternative medicine practitioners out there who believe in the healing power of magnets. My dad used to tape magnets to his head and face (maybe he still does) to treat some malady or another. Maybe that’s the pseudoscience that’s behind the Island’s special powers. The electromagnet is also the reason why nobody will be able to find their way back to the island and why Desmond sailed due east according to his compass and ended up back at the island.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 7:13 am
I think it would be naive to believe their dead. I don’t think the producers would kill off the most interesting character of Season 1 (Locke) AND season 2 (Eko). Especially considering their relationship is somewhat central to the plot. And we still don’t know how Locke was paralyzed. It’d be hard to do that flashback if he’s dead.
Hey, wasn’t Kelvin in Sayid’s (?) flashback, ordering him to torture his former comrade?
Comment by Tim J. — May 25, 2006 @ 7:16 am
I agree. They can’t be dead. They could be changed, though. Maybe they switched bodies! Oh, the hilarity that would ensue!
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 7:19 am
The more I think about it, the less I like the finale. I’ve largely given the writers a pass on the whole why-don’t-the-characters-talk-about-important-stuff-to-each-other-thing, but last night was ridiculous. Let’s see, there’s a weird noise accompanied by the sky turning strange colors, and the hatch door falls out of the sky and lands in the camp. Yet we have a night time shot of the redshirt Losties plus Claire and Charlie, sitting tranquilly around campfires chatting idly about this and that.
1. No one seems to have noticed that Jack, Kate, Sayid, Michael, Hurley, Locke, Eko, Jin, Sun, and Sawyer are nowhere to be found, even after the strange incident that surely set everyone to talking with each other. Even if this group weren’t the leadership of the 815 survivors, their absence would surely have been noted due to the sheer numbers.
2. Apparently, no one has seen fit to go check out what’s going on in the hatch. No one. NO ONE. Maybe Charlie has a reason, but what about everyone else? The hatch door was apparently blown off by whatever it was that made the noise and the lights, but is anyone at all remotely curious about it?
3. No one seems to have noticed that the boat, which represents their best chance of getting off the island, despite Desmond’s wild-eyed rantings, is missing.
Notice how many times the words “no one” appear above?
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 7:30 am
Speaking of the why-don’t-the-characters-talk-
about-important-stuff-to-each-other-thing …
When Desmond and Penny were having their conversation by their cars at the stadium, I kept wondering why Desmond didn’t relieve her hurt by telling her that her father had kept all his letters from getting to her.
There have been other occasions in the show where the obvious thing to say is not said.
Comment by danithew — May 25, 2006 @ 8:01 am
Dan, at least with the Desmond/Penny conversation I could come up with a number of plausible explanations for his silence — he didn’t want to damage her relationship with her father, he has some deal with Widmore, etc. For the most part, I’m willing to accept things like that. The silences on the various hatches? A little unlikely, but I can buy into it.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 8:13 am
Chicago Tribune on Lost vs. American Idol
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 8:31 am
Oh Bryce. I fear for the welfare of your soul.
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 8:49 am
I thought it was understood that everyone knew that Jack, Sawyer, Hurley and Kate had gone with Michael. There was at least some discussion of it before Ana Lucia’s burial.
As for why nobody’s checking the hatch, I don’t know. Charlie’s been looking out for his own interests for the whole season, so it doesn’t surprise me that he’s cuddling up to Claire instead of trying to find out if Eko, Locke and Desmond are okay.
I don’t think it’s necessary to show every conversation that happens on the island. That would be tedious. But the communication problems/lack of central authority have been there from the beginning. Bunch of anarchists.
Tom- re: commercials, that’s what TIVO/DVR is for.
Comment by Allison — May 25, 2006 @ 9:03 am
My main problem with the Penny/Desmond conversation is that she asks him point blank: “Why didn’t you write me?” Usually in a romantic relationship that tight, the relationship takes precedence over other concerns — particularly those involving a meddling father. But Desmond just turns his back and walks off. It’s not a complete show-killer moment, but it’s one of moments where you wonder if a character is missing brain cells.
Comment by danithew — May 25, 2006 @ 9:11 am
Allison –
I forgot about the conversation at the funeral. Still, Jin, Sayid, Sun, Locke, and Eko are MIA, the hatch was clearly blown up by the weird event, and no one has gone to the hatch. The problem isn’t that people aren’t talking about things that only they know. I’ve been willing to buy that all along. The problem is that there has been a universally shared experience, and no one is talking about it. That is totally bogus.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 9:15 am
SG –
Maybe I’ll start watching Veronica Mars
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 9:17 am
“Maybe I’ll start watching Veronica Mars”
There’s hope for you yet!!
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 9:55 am
Bryce, do you really think it would make for a dramatic, compelling, time-worthy scene to see the 30 or so survivors we don’t know a thing about and don’t really care about standing on the beach, saying, hey, where did everyone go, just so it would be easier for you to suspend your disbelief?
That would be totally bogus and a waste of story time, in my opinion. Especially in the closing ten minutes or so of the finale. Even if Claire, Bernard, and Rose–the only survivors we know by name or have any other emotional connection to–ran to the hatch, it would have distracted from what was way more compelling, namely, what was going on with Michael, Walt, evil Henry Gale and the four others. In my mind these people are starting to get conditioned to strange happenings. If I were on the island and heard strange noises, explosions, and weird lights in the jungle that last thing I would do is run toward them.
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 10:34 am
One will never regret the commitment to Veronica Mars.
Mark my words.
Comment by Amri — May 25, 2006 @ 10:37 am
Some other thoughts on the finale:
http://www.eonline.com/Insider/Boards/ann.jspa?annID=573
And a VM commitment will never been regretted!!
Comment by Rebecca — May 25, 2006 @ 10:44 am
Brian –
I would have been fine if we never saw the other 30 survivors + Charlie + Claire + Rose + Bernard at all after the hatch blew open. The problem is precisely that we did (at least we saw Charlie and Claire, and the fires of the other survivors). The only indication that anything out of the ordinary happened that day was Claire off-handedly wondering where Locke was.
You mean to tell me that the hatch blows up, the door flies hundreds of yards through the air to land on the beach in front of everyone, everyone knows that at least Eko was in the hatch, and no one (those words again) goes to see if he’s ok? Bogus. And all just to show that Claire is sweet on Charlie again. Please. Leave out that scene, and I’m merely disappointed.
The problem might be that the finale was about 20 minutes too long. The best place to end it would be when Michael’s group stumbles upon the other end of the pneumatic tube and gets taken down by the darts. Leave the meltdown for the premiere. I would have been totally geeked out by that.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 10:57 am
I just watched it online (you are right, the episode itself was 86 minutes long). I am afraid that I agree with Bryce. It was a great big letdown. I’ll still watch next season, but I have a feeling that we are going to have to get to know a whole new group of castaways.
Charlie was acting shifty all episode. The redshirts really should know better. No real explanation about the others or the purpose of the island. No real explanation regarding the crash and the hatch. I feel like I’ve stumbled an illusionists show where the real action is happening with the hand that we can’t see. All we get is what they give us and what they give us is nothing.
So, I’m a little bitter…
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 11:01 am
OK, the scene with Claire and Charlie also serves to show that something is not quite right with Charlie. Still not worth including the scene.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 11:02 am
Other issues,
Apparently, the Others are as concerned with Hurley’s weight as Libby was since exercise is the only reason they dragged him around the island.
How could nobody care about what was happening at the hatch when the freaking door came flying out of the sky?
I’ve long had a theory that the food is making everyone drugged out of their head and the vapidness of the redshirts confirms it. They don’t act like actual thinking people.
I would be happy with the show if the people acted like actual people (which incidentally appears to be what Desmond did). So maybe it is a good thing that next season will be about the grand reunion between Des and Pen.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 11:06 am
(sigh) I’ll concede the Claire/Charlie scene could possibly have been cut and it would have been better direction to have the other survivors being animated or concerned in the b.g.
However, the Charlie scene will prove significant next season I am sure, because even you must admit Charlie has been acting strange lately, and the odds are he’s about to go Dark Charlie on us.
And again, if I’m on that beach and a metal hatch flies out of the sky and lands in front of me, the last thing I’m going to do is run into the jungle in the direction it came from to check up on the rather intimidating Nigerian warlord that carries around an axe and a scripture stick.
I would probably wait by the campfire and roast some Dharma marshmallows, but that’s just me.
It’s cool if you didn’t like the finale, but you’ve already admitted you’ll be watching next season, and that says it all.
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 11:09 am
I have to tell you that I am hopelessly addicted to spoilers. So I saw a lot of this coming. I spent most of the episode watching and hoping that what I had read wasn’t true. Ages ago, when I read about the need for someone to play Widmore and daughter, I thought, why are they telling this story? They already have 16 balls up in the air; why add another 13? There is a lot of laziness evident here; it is easier to ask questions than to come up with compelling answers (especially as, apparently, they are making up the answers as they go). Smoke and mirrors all of it.
I really need to let go. I’ll be back complaining in the Fall, no doubt.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 11:11 am
On the other hand, some writer did say they were looking to cast someone for Frogurt , so there is that to look forward to, I suppose.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 11:14 am
Ha ha, you’re all so hooked it’s hilarious. All this minor backlash is just a reaction to the loss of power and control when you are putty in the hands of master storytellers. Why can’t you just give in like the rest of us and enjoy the ride?
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 11:22 am
I was very into the season finale, but some parts confused me a little. Why didn’t anyone go check on Locke and Eko, why do we care if Charlie and Claire get together right now, the hatch just blew up and the sky went crazy and a noise was ear hurting..I wanna know about that!! And at the very end where it showed the guys in the snow, and they had to make a phone call, Was that a flashblack or did I just get totally lost on what was going on there. No doubt about it I will be watching the next season to find out what has happened to Locke and Eko and the other castaway members that are with “The Others”. Hopefully we will figure out more about them..like who exactlly “the others” are.
Comment by Crystal — May 25, 2006 @ 11:24 am
I’m enjoying the ride despite what I consider a lack of storytelling mastery. In other words, I like it, but I don’t hold it in high regard, like American Idol or Pizza Hut Cheesy Bites Pizza.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 11:32 am
Brian, I am hooked, but I am hooked because the questions that were introduced still haven’t been answered. All we have are more questions.
Seriously, what did the finale tell us? The hatch does something? It’s magnetic? It might have affected the plane? Therefore, it is all random? Except that it isn’t, because everyone’s lives are intertwined? The button saves the world; except you can stop pushing it and the world keeps on chugging? Charlie has become really creepy? Alex is hanging around the good guys? There are people who were torn apart by the islands influence? 325 is an important number? Useless! All of it!
Actually, I’m hooked because it is easy to hook me on any story. I am looking forward to finding out if LuAnn’s brother ever gets together with Toni Daytona, too.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 11:45 am
“Useless! All of it!”
HP, what would be useful? This is a work of fiction — I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 11:56 am
I mean that they said that there would be answers, but the answers were to things that many people had already worked out. Like last week, where we learned that Michael had been turned by the desire for his kid, when most people (I think) had figured out that he had been turned by the desire for his kid. It is as if the big reveal at the end was that the island is mysterious. Thanks, but I knew that already.
I suppose that my frustration really comes from the feeling that I can’t trust anything that I see on the show to be true (even within the world of the show). There is nothing to help me understand what I’m dealing with. Maybe Charlie isn’t being shifty; maybe he really is that dim. I just feel like I am being taken and I don’t like that feeling.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
I just feel like I am being taken and I don’t like that feeling.
That’s pretty much what bothers me about the fact that we didn’t know that Michael wasn’t leading them to the village. It’s cheating and it’s lying.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 12:17 pm
I love that feeling. I love to be taken–taken for a ride by people who know how to drive.
Here’s just a short list of questions that were fairly definitively answered last night that I, at least, hadn’t worked out and that I believe most people hadn’t either:
Why did the plane crash?
What happens if you don’t press the button and why do you have to press it?
Who is the leader of the Others? (Actually I called this one)
How did Desmond get on the island and where did he go when he left the hatch?
Where does that pneumatic tube lead to?
Who drew the map on the wall?
What do the logs mean that they printed out?
And we got more information about what the island as a whole could be all about. I mean you can’t expect the writers to explain the whole island and destroy the entire reason people watch the show and lose their kick-ass, well-paying jobs in the process, can you? Let’s be reasonable.
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
And Tom, oh, no TV writers lying, making things up! Scandalous. If writers felt obligated to reveal all story details all the time there would be no such thing as suspense or twists.
With that kind of thinking SIXTH SENSE should have began with Bruce Willis lying dead in his grave, USUAL SUSPECTS should have began with Kevin Spacey waving his arms in the air and saying, “Look, everyone, I’m Kaiser Soze.”
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 12:31 pm
There’s being taken for a ride and then there’s being taken as in being cheaply manipulated. I love the former. The latter I can live with if it’s in the service of a good entertainment like Lost is.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
Why did the plane crash?
What happens if you don’t press the button and why do you have to press it?
Who is the leader of the Others? (Actually I called this one)
How did Desmond get on the island and where did he go when he left the hatch?
Where does that pneumatic tube lead to?
Who drew the map on the wall?
What do the logs mean that they printed out?
Brian, the only one of these questions that was “definitively answered” was the one about Desmond. All the others are still open to interpretation. It’s like Tom’s problem with last week. They want you to think that they have answered more than they have because that way they can change the rules later on.
The difference with the Sixth Sense and the Usual Suspects was that, when you got the big reveal, you could go back through what you had and fit it all together. You can’t yet do that with Lost and I am afraid that we will never be able to (hence, Bryce’s X-files dread). I just don’t think that there is someone on staff who is making sure that the forces behind the island remain consistent. If I had the feeling that we were getting carefully controlled information, and not sloppy plotting (brought about by off-screen drunk driving accidents and tv deals), I would be much more gung-ho about the entire process.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
Hithcock didn’t lie or cheat. The Sixth Sense didn’t lie, it just didn’t tell you everything. I can’t remember if the Usual Suspects outright lied. It was great entertainment, though.
There’s a big difference between not allowing the audience to be privy to every fact and outright lying. The Lost writers effectively told us that we knew the plan. We left the conversation because it was over. You can’t just say, “They kept on talking after the camera cut away and arranged the trick.” It would have been OK if it led you to believe that the conversation continued and we just weren’t privy to it. That would have been acceptable. The lie is not.
Skilled storytellers don’t lie. Lying and cheating are crutches.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 12:46 pm
You’re kidding right, HP? You think someone else besides Kelvin drew the map, even though we saw him doing so, that the gigantic pile of canisters which people handled were an illusion of some kind? That the metal objects flying around were another elaborate set-up?
That the writers would get hundreds of thousands of people in a position where they question everything is simply proof of their brilliance.
If the writers go back and offer unsatisfying alternative explanations for these things that would be cheating, but if they offer an alternative explanation for what happened that is cool and entertaining, (which is exactly what SIXTH SENSE, USUSAL SUSPECTS, and thousands of other successful stories do) that’s good writing.
I’m getting weary of defending the show. It is just a TV show after all, and if people are frustrated with it, that’s cool, I’m not crazy about AMERICAN IDOL and 30 million people tuned in to that heap last night, but let me assure you there are certainly not just one person on staff keeping the island consistent, but probably a team of 6 to 10 people if not many more.
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 12:55 pm
My thoughts on choosing your TV viewing habits:
Last year, I watched nearly every episode of American Idol. That’s valuable time living that I’ll never get back. With all due respect to American Idol fans, I don’t understand that show’s appeal at all. Very cheesy people singing very cheesy pop songs, with predictable feedback from a panel of judges? There’s very finite entertainment value in that for me. I gave that show a full season to grow on me, but regretted it later.
In contrast, Lost always has something new to offer. Even at its worst, Lost is better than almost any other show on television. An added bonus: No Ryan Secrest!
Also, Veronica Mars will be on Tuesdays next year, so it’s really a question of House vs. VM, not Lost.
I’ve heard all the complaints about the Losties not talking amongst themselves too much, but frankly, I don’t have a problem with it, for two reasons:
1) I hate unnecessary exposition. It’s the bane of the action drama and a sign of lazy writing. That moment in the show where the action grinds to a halt so that the characters can explain what’s going on to each other (and the audience): it always makes me groan audibly.
2) These people all have trust issues as well as personal things they are hiding. They’re not your average, happy-go-lucky, go-along and get-along kind of people. I’m not surprised that they don’t share their feelings and their information that readily.
I actually prefer it this way.
Comment by BTD Greg — May 25, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
Hitchcock didn’t lie or cheat? Or withold information, puh-lease! You guys would have REAR WINDOW take place in Raymond Burr’s apartment. That entire film is about skillfully withholding information, leaving things out of frame, only giving the audience so much to go on.
Hitchcock was the Master of the McGuffin. He invented the term!
(sigh) I’m sorry you felt suckered, Tom, and I can see I won’t convince you that the writers are skilled, but I would like you to tell me how you write a good scene that would lead you to believe a conversation continued that you weren’t privy to. As I recall the scene in question ends with Michael saying, “I want the boat.” And we didn’t hear an answer, that in fact suggests that yes, the scene did continue and we weren’t privy to it.
???
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 1:05 pm
“You think someone else besides Kelvin drew the map, even though we saw him doing so, that the gigantic pile of canisters which people handled were an illusion of some kind? That the metal objects flying around were another elaborate set-up?”
Um, Radzinski (whomever he may have been (I’m guessing the illegitimate offspring of Locke’s mother and Alvar Hanso or Penelope Widmore’s fifth-form crush)) apparently did most of the mapping. We know where the tubes end up, not where they travel en route. Regarding the magnet, I have no clue, but I am certain that things are not what they seem there.
You may be right, they may be brilliant. If they can pull it together at the end, that will be the proof and I will gladly say that I was wrong and buy you a mango. My suspicions about a lack of an overall theory or arch may be nothing more than bitterness. Here’s hoping that you are right.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
Does everybody know where the hatch is located? We’ve never seen anyone near the hatch save fro the main characters. Remember, Hurley didn’t distribute the Dharma food in the hatch, he took it to them. Just wondering aloud.
Comment by Tim J. — May 25, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
After all this, I want two mangos.
Comment by Brian G — May 25, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
lol. done.
Comment by HP — May 25, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
BTD Greg, in case you’re responding to me, I don’t care that people on the island keep secrets from each other when most people would share information. What rings totally false to me about the ending of the finale is that EVERYONE on the beach knows that the hatch exploded and no one responds to it. There’s no secret.
As for VM vs. LOST — it’s not so much a question of timing as time. I don’t watch TV other than LOST, and I don’t see myself watching more than one show regularly, so if VM is any good, I might give it a try, especially since we’ll have long stretches of LOSTless weeks next season.
My point about the X-Files was that even though the grand narrative broke down badly at the end, the writers could still pull off some great single-episode stories that one could watch without knowing any of the internal mythology. LOST could use the ability to tell shorter stories that are more or less disconnected from the main narrative to reward the occasional viewer (I can’t imagine there are many occasional viewers now).
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Hitchcock witheld information. That’s not lying. He made us believe that Norman Bates’s mother was alive. But he didn’t show Norman interacting with an old lady as though she were his mother and then later reveal that, no, that wasn’t really his mother, it was his neighbor; his mother is really . . . himself! That would have been lying and cheating. Hitch didn’t do that. Lesser storytellers wouldn’t have been able to resist.
In Rear Window we weren’t privy to what was happening in Thorwald’s apartment. We regarded everything from Jeffries’ point of view. We saw what he saw and interpreted it from his perspective. None of it was a lie. None of it was cheating.
Hitch never did anything as cheaply contrived as what happened with Michael.
Look, I’m not saying that these writers suck or that Lost sucks. Just that they do distractingly cheap stuff sometimes and Lost would be more enjoyable if they didn’t.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
Bryce, VM *is* a great show. But if you’re going to watch it, you might want to start with the DVDs for season 1. VM is nearly as complicated as Lost, and you need to know all the backstories to really appreciate the significance of what’s going on. I picked it up in the second season and there’s a lot of stuff I still don’t understand about what’s going on. VM does have the advantage of having little single-episode mini-mysteries to solve which can be rewarding for the casual viewer.
As a dedicated Lost fan, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest that Lost gets only 15 million (as opposed to 20 million) regular viewers. It’s still one of the most successful shows on television and is in no danger of being cancelled. Considering how many risks the show has taken, that’s impressive. (Did you know that the ABC exec who greenlighted Lost was fired because the pilot cost so much to make? Silly Michael Eisner.)
Comment by BTD Greg — May 25, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
Uh, Tom, you need to see PSYCHO again because it’s much more manipulative than what LOST did (and also brilliant). Honestly.
You have shots where we hear Norman and his mother having conversations but don’t see them. Is this a lie? We hear her browbeating him, so our sympathy is drawn to him. Is this a lie? We see the outline of her body up in the window if I’m not mistaken. Is this a lie? She’s referred to constantly by Norman as if she were alive. Are these lies? I mean, seriously.
There is a difference between withholding information and lying, on that we agree. I don’t see how the LOST writers lied. Michael lied, or rather allowed the Jack et al to believe he would lead them to the beach, under understandable circumstances, in order to get Walt back and you believed him, and you felt it was cheap. That’s your privilege.
Comment by Brian Gibson — May 25, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Am I the only person who likes fake Henry Gale? Sure, he’s creepy. But what has he actually done that is wrong, that we know of? He keeps his promises, even when he doesn’t have to. A cool storyline would be one in which we are forced to admit that he really is one of the good guys.
Comment by Bryce I — May 25, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
I guess you could consider those Psycho instances lies. I don’t know, it gets fuzzy. But they’re not cheap lies. My example in #59 would have been a cheap lie. So I suppose when it comes down to it, it’s the cheapness of the trick that gets me. And I suppose cheapness is in the eye of the beholder.
(And it’s not characters’ lies that bug me. It’s storytellers’. Character stupidity does bug me, though.)
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
Bryce, I’ve wondered the same thing … whether the show can somehow demonstrate to us that this Others organization or Dharma (are the two linked at all?) is actually on the up-and-up.
Still, taking a kid away from his father forcefully does not seem like a justifiable course of action.
Comment by danithew — May 25, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
I love Fake Henry Gale, as a character. He’s clearly evil, though. And he has lied quite a bit, and manipulated John Locke just to mess with him. I don’t trust him when he says he keeps his promises. And if he’s one of the “good guys” it’s only going to be relative to whatever “bad guys” we’ll see. My guess, though, is that he will keep insisting he’s on the right side using the ends-justifying-the-means argument every good villain uses.
Comment by Allison — May 25, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
Maybe the survivors are the bad guys and we (and they) just don’t know it yet.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
Tom, I think we know that a lot (if not all) of the survivors are bad, bad people. Sawyer-Kate-Jin-Sayid… which one is good?
read this:
Will a rescue effort be a part of Season 3? Mr. Lindelof and Mr. Cuse would not say but allowed that if this season was about the hatch, next season will be about the Others, as led by the oblique Henry Gale (played by Michael Emerson, who will join the regular cast). Mr. Cuse listed what viewers will learn about the Others by this time next year: “Who are these people? How many of them are there? What is their history? What are they trying to accomplish?”
Beyond serving as a teaser, the finale’s last minutes were incredibly important to the larger story, Mr. Lindelof said, particularly since this was the first time in 49 hours of the show that “Lost” went off the island in the present, rather than in a flashback. “It’s time to actually blow up several theories of the show,” he said. “People who believe that they’re in purgatory or that they’re subjects of an experiment are going to start reassessing those theories based on the fact that we are literally showing you the outside world.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/arts/television/25lost.html
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 7:21 pm
you all might want to read this article:
quoting:
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 7:41 pm
Yeah, SuperG, but they aren’t Bad Guys in the story. We’re on their side. It would be wild if things flipped and they became true Bad Guys.
Comment by Tom — May 25, 2006 @ 7:55 pm
Tom, I think stay tuned for next season. Remember how much we used to like Charlie?
Comment by Supergenius — May 25, 2006 @ 8:23 pm
I’ve got to second the Veronica Mars love. I’m a fan of Lost as well, but Veronica can captivate even my TV-hating wife.
Comment by Ben S. — May 26, 2006 @ 10:24 am
Are Lost and VM going to be scheduled at the same time next season? Or will it be up against House again? Anyone know for sure?
Comment by Allison — May 26, 2006 @ 11:42 am
Allison –
Why is FHG evil? He acts in his own self-interest, but has been much more restrained in his public actions than many of the “good guys” that we all seem to like.
Michael was my favorite character before he shot Ana Lucia and Libby. Then it was Eko. Now I think it might be FHG. Really.
Comment by Bryce I — May 26, 2006 @ 11:44 am
Bryce, other than his habit of kidnapping kids, lying, messing with people’s heads for fun, and assuming the identity of some guy he most likely killed himself, there’s nothing evil at all about Fake Henry Gale. Oh, and there’s the minor detail that he’s head of a group that has already killed, threatened and dragged off other castaways and kidnapped and drugged Claire so they could take her baby (and planned to kill her to get her out of the way). Clearly, he’s a great guy.
I do like him as a character, though. And as an actor.
Comment by Allison — May 26, 2006 @ 12:38 pm
folks, please - FHG is NOT head of the group. He works for the head of the group, and speaks of him in reverent tones. We assume the true head of the Others is none other than Alvar Hanso himself.
Comment by Supergenius — May 26, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
Exactly, SG. FHG is not a kidnapper that we know of — associated with kidnappers, yes, but that’s not the same thing. As for lying, well, there’s plenty of that to go around, and given that he was being held prisoner by an Iraqi torturer, one might reasonably cut him some slack. We don’t know anything about the circumstances surrounding the death of the real Henry Gale.
The more I think about it, the more I think that FHG is going to turn out to be a better guy than most of us are willing to give him credit for right now. At the very least, I’m not going to slap the ‘evil villain’ tag on him just yet. The tailies started out as a pretty unlikeable bunch, but look at them now.
Er, the ones who still seem to be alive, that is.
As for the true head of the Others, isn’t it obvious that it must be some kind of super genius? How do we know that KB isn’t a front for some kind of strange philanthopic organization with research projects in far-flung scientific fields?
Comment by Bryce I — May 26, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Okay, he may not be the top guy in the group, but he seems to have some authority at least, over Tom (fake bearded guy) and Ms. Klugh.
Strange philanthropic organizations don’t go around kidnapping kids and drugging expectant mothers if they are on the right side of things.
Comment by Allison — May 26, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
“As for the true head of the Others, isn’t it obvious that it must be some kind of super genius?”
heh heh heh heh…..
Comment by Supergenius — May 26, 2006 @ 1:43 pm
Interesting thoughts on Henry Gale. One thought to add, why didn’t he escape when Locke was trapped? Why did he come back to help him?
Comment by Tim J. — May 26, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
They do if they think the kids and expectant mothers are in some kind of danger.
Comment by Bryce I — May 26, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
Let’s all agree Fake Henry is awesome whoever and whatever he is. However, there is a serious unresolved inconsistency in his actions.
The main unanswered question is why he seems at cross purposes, and what really happened when Locke was pinned under the door.
FHG claimed he let the button go and that nothing happened, presumably he must have punched in the numbers anyway, but his mindgame with Locke led to Locke forcing the clock to run down by planting those seeds of doubt. The question is what did he want, for the clock to run out, or not.
Comment by Brian G — May 26, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
Brian G — I think you have something there. I think “the Others” are a mutiny from the Hanso Foundation, and Henry was waiting for the right time to release the electromagnetism, to indicate their location to…somebody.
I think Fake Henry is definitely Anti-Hanso. I also like his name “Gale,” like Dorothy Gale, who, (via Toto) exposed the Great Wizard for what he was: a controlling megalomaniac.
Yep, just jumping in here to your conversation…this is by far the most civil Lost discussion I have come across.
Comment by pele — May 26, 2006 @ 6:11 pm
Pele, I like the idea of the Others as a Hanso mutiny. They do kind of have a revolutionary/guerilla vibe going on. I also like the idea of Henry wanting Locke to run down the clock. Although if he was being at all trustworthy when he told Michael how to sail outta there, then he could leave anytime. So either way, he’s got something else going on.
Bryce, if they’re on the right side of things, they might warn an expectant mother/child of danger, or offer shelter, without drugging the mother, planning on taking the baby and killing her. Or threatening the Lostaways that one of them will die every day. And lots of other nefarious and bad stuff they’ve done.
Comment by Allison — May 26, 2006 @ 6:44 pm
yeah, as for Michael, don’t we all know that “you will be rescued” is really meaning “we’ll get you back?” They wouldn’t just give up their cool boat like that.
I think they’re “evil” because they have to keep control of the island from the Hanso people. How would they know the Lostaways weren’t sent by Hanso? And, maybe they are checking the kids out to see if they’ve been “infected.”
Jack, Kate, & Sawyer are probably recruits for their “cause.”
Comment by pele — May 26, 2006 @ 7:17 pm
Hm. My pet theory: I think they’re former Hanso people trying to found a utopian society and are trying to recruit/make genetically superior members. And I think they have their own ideas about good and bad that suit their own ends. Greg thinks they might be Hanso fundamentalists rather than anti-Hanso rebels. But with a similar good = for the “greater good” rather than good = ethical or nice thing going on.
At least nobody here is talking about Purgatory or Atlantis.
Comment by Allison — May 26, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
A couple of problems with the finale:
1. Namely Sayid’s big plan - I’ll sail to the other side of the island, and me, my big muscles and a gun will be able to get you guys out of trouble if the need arises. What’s up with that totally brainless, testosterone driven idea?!?
2. About the hatch door being blown off - Does anybody besides Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurly, Locke and Eko use the hatch at all? Um, nope, so why would they care about it if it appeared to have been blown up?
As far as everyone else knows Eko is still building his church and Locke isn’t down there anymore so who is there to check on?
Also, if Henry Gale came for Locke and was captured, it would make sense that the Others would put Locke on Michael’s list of those to bring back. So why not Locke?
Some good things about the finale:
1. Halelujah, Michael and Walt have driven off on a boat into the sunset. Good riddance. “I’m gonna get my boy back,” over and over and over and over and over. Finally the most annoying character on the show is gone! His over zealous devotion to a kid he hardly knows was not at all believable. Not that it’s bad to want to save a child, especially one who is supposedly his son, but the way in which he went about it and talked about was just so over dramatic! I hope we don’t see Michael again.
Locke’s words to Eko as the hatch numbers are closing in on themselves, “I was wrong…”
2. Locke is without a doubt not dead and I am interested to see how his faith develops after this incident. He was so composed and strong in his beliefs throughout the season and by the end of this finale we see the truly vulnerable and frightened man he has become. How will his faith develop or regress now?
3. I think it’s fantastic that the 3 main leaders of the Losties are in the hands of the Others. It allows some bystanding characters to develop in new ways, assuming leadership roles in the community.
4. I really enjoyed seeind Charlie and Claire reunite.
Charlie acting creepy? What did he do that was so creepy?
We’ve seen many times in this show that we haven’t seen the whole story. Claire asks about Locke and Charlie says, “..they’re not back yet?” Yet implying that Charlie saw them alive after Desmond turned the key. He was after all in the same hatch within close proximity of the two. Charlie also made a huge step in throwing the Mary statues out into the ocean. How are his obvious choices to better his life making him creepy?
5. It has left us with some great questions:
Is Penn actually searching for Desmond or is her involvment in looking for electromagnetic activity simple coincidental?
Is Desmond still alive?
Perhaps we only really got to know him in the finale, but that was enough. I love his character and I am quite anxious to see if he’s still alive and if so what will happen with him and Penn.
What will happen between Eko and Locke?
I know I’ve already mentioned Locke but I wish to address him again opposite Eko. These two are examples of Faith.
Eko represents blind faith.
Locke represents tested faith, questioned faith.
Is one stronger? Is one right and one wrong?
Locke had blind faith before but now he has nearly lost it. I think it will be reaffirmed by his decision in the hatch.
What about Eko, he is confident in all his decisions. Will we see the same thing happen to him that has happened to Locke?
Will Eko kill Locke before we have a chance to find out?
What does Libby have to do with all of this?
Though Libby is dead I am very interested in her back story. I feel she has more to do with all of the people on the island than we realize. I think we will see her in flashbacks. Which hopefully would mean Desmond is still alive. I think she is involved with the Widmores somehow.
What will we learn about the others?
“We’re the good guys…” quoth Henry Gale. What will Jack, Sawyer and Kate learn? We have three main characters in the hands of the Others. We’re bound to learn more about them now, or at least have more questions opened up about them to scrutinize.
There, my two cents. Enjoy!
Comment by Summer — May 27, 2006 @ 7:16 am
Just coming to the thread. A few thoughts to Summer’s complaints (above)
1. They are still going on the assumption there aren’t many Others. Surprise and good positioning counts a lot. Further we weren’t told all about Sayid’s plan. My guess is that the odd look Jack gives to Kate is that the capture is part of the plan and we’ll find this out in the initial new episodes.
2. I think people find explosions, odd lights in the sky and so forth interesting. Certainly they knew about the numbers and the strange things in the hatch. Plus the hatch was the source of a washer/dryer and perhaps the food that gets supplied. I think the odder question is why they weren’t *more* curious - especially about what happened to Locke and Ecko. The whole Charlie ending is pretty weird and need explained.
3. I tend to agree that Michael’s character is annoying. But I think Walt’s character is important and key to what’s going on. Remember the first flashback in season one that talks about Walt. There’s a lot of weird stuff there - also suggested by the Black woman’s questions to Michael. Like others I am curious as to how they handle Walt’s age when events are supposed to take place over a couple of months, not years.
4. While the answer that Charlie knew Ecko and Locke are OK is a plausible interpretation, the more obvious one given what is told is that something odd is going on. The bigger issue is why Claire, who had to deal with Charlie’s possible insanity and taking of the baby, would forgive him and go back to him. My wife suggested that far too many women do that sort of thing to abusive boyfriends. But the whole thing is extremely creepy. As was Charlie’s revenge.
5. Desmond is almost certainly alive. If you listened to the final podcast the producers mention a bit about this. They also say there won’t be repeats next year. There will be a mini-season starting in September of six episodes and then 17 episodes starting non-stop in January.
Comment by Clark Goble — June 2, 2006 @ 2:30 pm