Definitive bands
My husband is a big fan of thrash and power metal. You know, the fast stuff. With the high-pitched vocals and the speedy guitar work. He calls it “The Metal.” Like it’s a living, breathing thing. I’m also a big fan of metal, but the metal I prefer is the opposite. It’s slow, dark, low…HEAVY. Doom metal. I call it Pure Audio Sunshine.
We debate sometimes over the definition of heavy. To me, the slow, down-tuned stuff is heavy. To him, the speedy, screamy stuff is heavy.
But there was one band early on for me who defined what heavy music was: Soundgarden.
The first time I saw Soundgarden, they were opening for Love and Rockets at a small theater venue. I waited in line to get into the show for a long time, and I was standing next to someone who was chain smoking clove cigarettes. (Remember those?) I felt ill. Like I was going to puke.
But then Soundgarden came on the stage. Any thoughts of nausea disappeared. They were mesmerizing. Spellbinding. I couldn’t believe the sounds coming from that stage. Slow…dark…HEAVY.
Not all of their songs are slow and dark, but the ones that are, I consider their heaviest. For me, heavy = slow. I don’t mind the fast stuff. But Soundgarden and their slow, dark, powerful riffs are what defined heavy for me.
In general, I’d say there are heavier bands than Soundgarden. The Melvins, for instance. No one does heavy like the Melvins. But in the development of my personal music taste, Soundgarden was the definitive one.
So, I’m interested in hearing what are your personally definitive bands?
And what do you think are genre-defining bands, in general?
I’ll post a Soundgarden song and a Melvins song to the radio.blog. Enjoy.
Heavy metal was around long before Soundgarden. I date it to Iron Butterfly.
For punk - the Ramones.
Comment by Last Lemming — April 25, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
I definitely agree that the Ramones are the definitive punk band. When I refer to Punk music I’m talking about music that sounds like the Ramones. The less it sounds like the Ramones the less punk it is (in sound, not in sensibility).
I don’t know much about early heavy metal. Was Iron Butterfly before Black Sabbath?
The definitive Hard Rock band to me would be Zeppelin. There was Hard Rock before Zeppelin but there wasn’t a Hard Rock band. I’m sure there’s a strong case to be made that the Rolling Stones deserve the title of definitive Hard Rock band, but I don’t listen to them so Zeppelin wins.
I think most people consider Massive Attack to be the originators of trip-hop. But to me Portishead defines the genre, with early solo Tricky (Maxinquae, Nearly God) close behind. Early Massive Attack is not terribly far from regular hip hop, whereas Portishead and solo Tricky clearly are something different, something called trip hop.
Comment by Tom — April 25, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
I was thinking AC/DC are the definitive hard rock band, but I’m rethinking it now. I’m not sure I’d classify Led Zep as just a hard rock band. I think maybe they transcend any genre you try to classify them as.
Is Pink Floyd the definitive acid rock band? And King Crimson the definitive prog rock band?
Comment by Susan M — April 25, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
Hmm. This is actually harder than I would have thought. All the categories I can think of seem so narrow (Definitive Gypsy Punk band? Easy– Gogol Bordello.) or insulting (Definitive Post-Post-Grunge-derivative Rock? Nickelback.).
But maybe we could say the U2 is the Definitive Adult Alternative Radio Band. (It’s the best I can come up with.)
Comment by LoganB — April 25, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
Wow. I love the Ramones, but I think of them as Punk-lite. (not to be confused with emo-punk or pop-punk)
Black flag, circle jerks, dead kennedys, sex pistols.
Those are punk bands.
Comment by Jennifer — April 25, 2006 @ 6:35 pm
All I wanted was a pepsi!!!
Comment by Jennifer — April 25, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
I’m with you, Jennifer. But I’m not actually very familiar with the Ramones.
Comment by Susan M — April 25, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
Indigo Girls as the definitive alt-lesbian band? Some will say Sarah McLachlan — but a) not a lesbian and b) solo artist.
Comment by Supergenius — April 25, 2006 @ 7:12 pm
Weird Al
Comment by HP — April 25, 2006 @ 7:12 pm
Ahh, it kills me to see the Ramones called punk-lite. They basically invented the genre, inspired the Pistols and all the others that came later. Bands like Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Dead Kennedys (Minor Threat, Fear, etc) took punk and made it even more raw and fast and angular (and less tuneful), but it was nearly all from the Ramones’ template. That’s why these other bands got their own names: hardcore. But the Ramones are punk, period.
I think Sabbath is the definitive heavy metal band.
To me, Anthrax is the definite thrash band. Maybe REM is (was) the definitive alt-rock band. Talking Heads is probably the definitive New Wave band (apologies to Blondie). Grateful Dead are obviously the definitive Jam band guys. And Uncle Tupelo for alt-country. And certainly, Motley Crue is the definite glam metal band.
Susan, who is the definitive stoner rock band?
Comment by Greg — April 25, 2006 @ 7:29 pm
Those bands are punk because fundamentally they are very much like the Ramones. When I call the Ramones the definitive punk band, I mean not only that they are a prime example of the genre, but also that they defined the genre. So there’s a historical element to calling a band definitive. I don’t think a case can be made for Black Flag, Circle Jerks, or Dead Kennedy as being the definitive punk band. A case can probably be made for the Sex Pistols, but early on the Ramones influenced them not vice-versa.
Comment by Tom — April 25, 2006 @ 7:36 pm
That’s what I get for taking my time. Right on, Greg. The Ramones are not Punk-lite, those others are Punk-heavy.
Comment by Tom — April 25, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
Grunge: Nirvana. (Yeah, yeah, Mudhoney.)
Britpop: Blur
Comment by Ronan — April 25, 2006 @ 7:41 pm
I agree with jennifer. Ramones = Soft punk. DKs, Sex Pistols = punk rock. Black Flag & Circle jerks we used to call “Hardcore.”
Mod = The Jam
New Wave = The Knack (or The Cars or Blondie)
Heavy Metal = AC/DC; Black Sabbath
Brit-Pop = Oasis; Blur
Hair-Do Rock = Flock of Seagulls
Comment by meems — April 25, 2006 @ 8:35 pm
You guys have a weird definition of new wave. Flock of Seagulls = new wave. The Knack, Cars and Blondie = pop.
Stoner rock band is tough. There’s so many. The best definition I’ve ever heard of stoner rock is “Sabbathology 101.” So I guess you could say Black Sabbath is the definitive stoner rock band. But if you’re talking about more recent bands…I would say Queens of the Stone Age, because of their first album, but they’re so poppy now. Probably Fu Manchu or–oh wait. I’m totally overlooking the obvious. KYUSS!
Comment by Susan M — April 25, 2006 @ 8:59 pm
Susan - I think Flock of Seagulls is more like New Romantics (along with maybe Echo and the Bunnymen). Maybe a better definitive band for New Wave would be Devo. Or early Elvis Costello (a la Pump It Up).
Comment by meems — April 25, 2006 @ 10:25 pm
Wow, Susan. I think any definition of new wave that excludes the Cars AND Blondie is too narrow. Those are two of the absolutely definitive new wave bands in my mind!
The first problem, of course, is that new wave is virtually impossible to define by its musical characteristics. The second problem is that by the time MTV started, the first generation of new wave bands was no longer in its prime, and the second generation bands got all their videos played, making them seem like the One True New Wave.
The definition of new wave has to be something like “somewhat punk-inspired bands with a pop sensibility and likely to have been on early MTV.”
Or, the best rule-of thumb I’ve ever heard: new wave is music made by people who wear skinny ties.
Comment by LoganB — April 26, 2006 @ 6:02 am
I always thought of new wave as bands that wanted to be Japan, but ok.
Comment by Susan M — April 26, 2006 @ 7:44 am
While we’re on the topic of New Wave . . . Is Post Punk a subgenre within New Wave? Or was it just concomitant with New Wave? Is it New Wave without the pop sensibility? Would the definitive Post Punk band be Joy Division?
Comment by Tom — April 26, 2006 @ 8:11 am
AC/DC can’t be definitive metal. They’re not metal at all. It’s just hard rock (to me, anyway).
Definitive metal would be pre-1990 Metallica. Check out “…And Justice for All.” It’s the most technical heavy-metal album I know of (and I know a lot of metal!). Even crafted better than Slayer, who a lot of my metal-head friends say is the most techincal. I don’t agree with them. Metallica’s “Ride the Lightning” should be in every metal-lover’s collection. “Creeping Death” indeed!
I thought Soundgarden was just heavy grunge. I myself hesitate to call it metal. Chris Cornell is my favorite rock singer though.
Zeppelin can be hard rock, but isn’t necessarily always that way (compare “Communication Breakdown” with “I’m Gonna Crawl”).
King Crimson is definitive prog-rock.
Nirvana was definitive grunge, but I think Pearl Jam has successfully kept it alive for nearly two decades longer than any other band of the time.
Aerosmith is definitive butt-rock.
Comment by David J — April 26, 2006 @ 8:48 am
Definitive Reggae: Bob Marley (d-uh)
Classic rock: Led Zeppelin
Rock-n-Roll: Buddy Holly
Folk Rock: Bob Dylan
Psychedelic: too hard to pin down. Maybe Cream.
Comment by meems — April 26, 2006 @ 9:13 am
Uh, I think I was a little heavy-handed about new wave, Susan, sorry about that. (And I think your “wanted to be Japan” comment is probably funnier than I realize. What does it mean?)
And Tom, depending on how nerdy you are, post-punk can definitely be thought of as distinct from new wave. Joy Division is probably right for definitive post-punk.
Comment by LoganB — April 26, 2006 @ 9:37 am
I’m currently reading “Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984″ by Simon Reynolds. Both fascinating and infuriating. While a few American bands get mentioned, it’s very UK-centric — take the fact that postpunk is defined as after the Sex Pistols, when we all know that they were a creation of Malcolm MacLaren who was inspired by and then ripped off the New York punk scene (and he was more interested in making a fashion statement than a musical one, though I am quite fond of his “Madame Butterfly”); reference the excellent music Lydon made with PiL after splitting from MacLaren — and mostly ignores the West coast punk action.
Usually punk gets sourced back to two big influences: Velvet Underground and The Stooges. Sometimes Captain Beefheart is thrown in. I think it was said of the Velvet Underground that “they didn’t sell many records but everyone one who bought one started a band.”
But this post is about metal, not punk. Since I’m not a metal fan I’ll skip critiquing and categorizing. Other than grunge boringly ripped off all the good eighties bands.
What I’m trying to get to is the Kinks. I think they were the most influential band of the early-mid sixties. And I’ve read convincing arguments that they were a direct precursor of BOTH metal and punk. Listen to whatever you personally define as punk/metal/alternative over, say, the last 25 years. More like the Kinks, Beatles, or Rolling Stones? Look at their first two hits: “You Really Got Me” and “All Day and All of the Night.” That was 1964, no was close to what they were doing.
Bill’s top bands of all time, alphabetical order:
J. Geils Band
Kinks
Mary’s Danish
Prince
Replacements
Who
X
Comment by bill — April 26, 2006 @ 10:08 am
Supergenius asked Indigo Girls as the definitive alt-lesbian band?
I say Two Nice Girls. Gotta listen to “I Spent My Last Two Dollars On Birth Control and Beer” and “”Sweet Jane And Affection.”
Comment by bill — April 26, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Bill, I never realized how influenced Mary’s Danish were by X until I read about how the two singers met at an X concert. And then I was like, “Duh! Their harmonies are exactly like X!” How did I miss that?
Logan, Japan was a 70’s/80’s band influenced by glam who basically became “new romantic” synth pop. Duran Duran’s first album is a rip off of Japan.
Japan themselves were considered a rip off of Roxy Music, I think.
Anyway, new wave to me has always been the goofy hair dos and crazy make up. Like me in junior high.
Comment by Susan M — April 26, 2006 @ 10:21 am
Simon Reynolds (”Rip it up and start again”) on Duran Duran:
Duran Duran…initial concept was about as postpunk as imaginable: the Sex Pistols meets Chic. Soon, Duran Duran became the key figures in Birmingham’s New Romantic scene….London contemporaries Visage and Spandau Ballet….By 1983, DD were global magastars. The band still entertained some higher ambitions, which leaked out in the ripe gibberish of Simon LeBon’s lyrics, the increasingly overblown videos, and the artistic affectations of keyboardist Nick Rhodes, who idolized Japan’s David Sylvain…
I am not remembering Japan, but Reynolds includes them in the chapter “Electric Dreams” with Human League, Ultra Vox, Gary Numan, Soft Cell, Depeche Mode, etc. And Pete Shelley (I have his first album). Of Japan, David Sylvain took the name “Sylvain” after Sylvain of the New York Dolls and the drummer “called himself Steve Jansen, after Dolls singer David Johansen.” And “Gradually, Japan developed an arresting and distinctive post-Roxy sound built around exotic synth textures and Mick Karn’s languid fretless bass.”
Comment by bill — April 26, 2006 @ 11:17 am
I object to the characterization of King Crimson as the definitive prog-rock band. If there were a definitive prog-rock band, then the entire genre would, by definition, have failed.
Comment by Last Lemming — April 26, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
How are you defining prog-rock, then?
Comment by Susan M — April 26, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
How are you defining prog-rock, then?
As progressive; i.e. “making use of or interested in new ideas…”
If a genre can relate all its music back to a definitive group, it doesn’t deserve the label “progressive.” (And now that I think of it, much of what passes for prog-rock probably doesn’t.)
And speaking of bands defining a nonprogressive genre, how about Bill Monroe and his Bluegrass Boys?
Comment by Last Lemming — April 26, 2006 @ 1:29 pm
I always thought of Scorpions as definitive butt-rock. Aerosmith messes with my head in that I knew them as classic rock growing up only to find out that they kept making music that wasn’t classic rock any more.
But the thing is, I have no idea what’s definitive or not officially. I just know what I decided was for me…
Comment by BobC — April 26, 2006 @ 1:33 pm
re 19: post punk.
I think post punk and new wave are concurrent styles with a lot of blurring around the edges.
Would this make bands like Arctic Monkeys, Franz Ferdinand, Panic! at the Disco etc. eligible for the post-post-punk label? Or neo-new wave? Both? neither?
Comment by Jennifer — April 26, 2006 @ 1:35 pm
Definitive 1st wave ska band: Maybe the Wailers or Skatelites…
Definitive 2nd wave ska band: I’d give The Specials the nod over Madness (though I think I like Madness a little better and I like The (English) Beat better than they all..)
Comment by Geoff J — April 26, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
Jennifer, I like to think of Strokes-inspired British bands like Bloc Party, Franz Ferdinand, and Arctic Monkeys as post-neo-post-punk, but that’s just me.
Comment by LoganB — April 26, 2006 @ 7:14 pm
I gotta side with Susan on the Soundgarden question- definative and blew my mind when I first heard them. Still love them. And anything Cornell is involved with.
As far as punk, it’s hard to say- but when the Ramones get used in a cookie comercial, somthing bad is afoot in the world!
Comment by tracy m — April 27, 2006 @ 11:19 am
LoganB : “Hey- You got chocolate in my peanut butter!”
Comment by Jennifer — April 27, 2006 @ 12:07 pm
Um, I feel so uncool, admitting this twice in one thread, but I don’t know your reference, either, Jennifer. But I’ll bet it would be really funny if I did. . .
Comment by LoganB — April 27, 2006 @ 2:16 pm
Jennifer, you got peanut butter in his chocolate.
Comment by Supergenius — April 27, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
LoganB- ok. is it a cultural divide or are SuperG & I just that old?
The peanut butter/chocolate reference is to an 70’s/80’s series of Reece’s peanut butter cup commercials.
Various people would run into each other holding either peanut butter or chocolate and hilarious advertising hijinks would ensue.
In this case : post post punk=peanut butter, neo new wave=chocolate , therefore, post-neo-post punk= chocolate in peanut butter.
Comment by Jennifer — April 28, 2006 @ 11:30 am
Ah, thanks, Jennifer.
And, uh, I was only alive for a few months in the 70’s, so um, yeah.
Comment by LoganB — April 28, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
i’m with jennifer # 5 but that does not mean any disrespect to the Ramones. It’s just that the Exploited, Black Flag, and Minor Threat embody the sound that I associate with Punk. But I agree with Greg that they sort of proceeded from the Ramones template in a certain sense.
Comment by john f. — May 1, 2006 @ 11:28 am
by the way, we punk skateboarders always referred to Metal, whether speed, death, glamor, heavy, light, or otherwise, as “butt rock”. No offense to any and all butt rockers.
Comment by john f. — May 1, 2006 @ 11:29 am
I am with David J re Soundgarden — neither I nor my friends ever considered them Metal but rather “Pearl Jam Punk” which was not a compliment (includes pearl jam and all like-sounding bands, of which there are legion). With teenage angst and malaise out of the way, however, I can say that I now like a lot of all of what my friends and I used to ridicule as butt rock and pearl jam punk.
I always liked a much wider range of music than most of my skateboarder friends. For example, I never dropped U2 or other regular rock or alternative material while heavily steeped in punk. I even kept a finger on the techno pulse during that period. But we were mostly just dismissive of the various forms of Metal and noone had much to say about Techno or the other stuff.
All of us kept a nominal allegiance to “oldies” because it seemed dorky and thus “cool” for us as skateboarders. So you would have us pounding the Exploited followed directly by the Beach Boys. Weird, I know.
Geoff J., I agree with you on ska but you forgot the Voodoo Glowskulls and several others, but that’s just a technicality.
Comment by john f. — May 1, 2006 @ 11:38 am
The Beatles are the definitive boy band.
Comment by danithew — May 1, 2006 @ 11:51 am
Can’t believe Iron Maiden hasn’t been brought up in a heavy metal thread. I loved nearly everything from Maiden up to Powerslave. Parts of their next two albums were pretty good but then it all fell apart, until recently. Their comeback album with Bruce Dickinson back on vocals was quite good.
And I agree with David J (#20) that Metallica pre-1990 was awesome. I never considered Slayer as technical mainly because their rhythms were less syncopated, only faster, and the guitar solos were chaos, easy to mimic. I consider “Master of Puppets†their best but “And Justice for All†cannot be denied, although Lars’ drums sound kinda strange.
Comment by Carlton — May 18, 2006 @ 11:12 am
Forgot to mention this bit about Iron Maiden (from wikipedia),
“In 1988, the band tried a different approach for their seventh studio album, titled Seventh Son of a Seventh Son. This was a concept album featuring a story about a mythical child who possessed clairvoyant powers based on the book Seventh Son by Orson Scott Card.”
Also, my comment sounds like I didn’t like Powerslave but actually it’s my favorite.
Comment by Carlton — May 18, 2006 @ 11:37 am